Some advice; classic 20 SF?

[crsavage1]

I am desperately close to buying a classic 20' SeaCraft. I have a few questions and please forgive me as I am new to this and would like some guidance before doing anything rash.

I am looking at a couple of 20' SF's (both have been listed on the site for sale) and they are in difference stages. One is basically a hull that has had the transom and a lot of the glass re-done. The other is showing it's age but looks all original. So how crazy is this all?

My needs and ideas for the boat are to basically restore it for my small family to cruise the lake / fish rockfish / pull tubes / enjoy the water. My idea is to update it, re-power it, refinish it, T-Top etc. Will spend most of it's time trailered and the size seems to be something easy enough for us to work with since it will spend 99% of it's time in freshwater between Ohio and Alabama.

I have read most, if not all, of the sticky posts for things like brackets etc. My original thought was to, when ready, add an armstrong bracket for a little more room in the back. I have built a new console I modeled out of foam and glassed it (I do things backwards, I wanted to understand how the process works) and figured it would give us a little more working space and perhaps some better seating. The bracket discussion gave some fair guidance about putting a bracket on a 20'. I assume some folks are running updated power on the 20's with and without brackets? Are the newer 4 strokes too heavy for a 20' or did I misunderstand?

So let me get back to my questions instead of being so scattered....
1. Is what I am thinking reasonable? I have looked at new boats, late year used boats and classics. The SeaCraft of the 60's and 70's are just striking and I like the idea of doing some/all of the work myself.

2. The pricing for these boats vary wildly obviously. What is reasonable for the range I am looking at? A hull with no power but transom/glass work done vs. an all original running boat? Obviously condition is everything but looking for ideas and how to know what is reasonable and what is "a good deal". Any general guidance would be appreciated.

3. Am I nuts? Most everyone I have talked to (including my wife ) think maybe I have gone nuts. Is this simply over my head and will turn into one of those things I laugh about in 20 years when I had to pay someone to drag a boat away. The honesty may hurt, but I would rather have my bubble burst than to end up in real trouble.

4. Most advice says to choose the size of boat you want, and then add a few feet. I like the idea of a 20' due to it being able to live in my garage if it absolutely had to. I have a really large garage and with a bracket it would still fit in but is that flawed thinking?

If anyone is or has any guidance on the specific deals I am trying to understand and work, feel free to PM me and I will share the specifics of the deals. I could really use some experienced advice on whether these are sound deals or things to walk away with. Never fall in love with a boat your about to buy....I keep repeating this to myself.

Finally, my sincere apologies for this length and rambling. I am new to this and figured maybe it was better to just get everything out rather than the back and forth questions. Any input is welcomed and I am happy to fill in any blanks that I may have missed.

Thanks all....

[Terry England]

CRSavage1, First of all, your candor is refeshing. Many new members want to feed us data on what they see as an as need to know basis. The problem is unless we know a lot about the intended use, typical load and standard range used, we have very little to go on. Here are a couple of initial thoughts -
1) We have all been where you are
2) All of our wives / girlfriends / signifant others are certian we are CRAZY
3) Many overpower these boats - the original 20's were designed around a Mark 78 Merc (75 HP) for power. The 20's do fine with a 115 and are sporty with a 140. (What difference does it make when you have a VDH hull if you are riding around on your Cavitation Plate with a 200?)
4) Even when you do the work yourself the cost of the proper materials can add up quickly. If you pay to have the work done, you can easily exceed the resale value of the boat.
5) Proceed cautiously, people buy $5,000 boats and then 3 years later they have another $15,000 in them paying for work to be done and when you actually get in the $15,000 range there are a lot of nicely redone SeaCrafts with recent power available you can put your cooler in and go fishing.
6-9) Check with VezoII, Tom Paris, Bushwacker, Fly4Navy, Tiny, No Bones and others.
I'm just one of Gladys Knight's Pips.

[jtharmo]

Terry offers good technical advice. Now here is some moral support. I was where you are literally 2 weeks ago. After searching for a few months I dragged home almost 400 miles a Seafari 20 and yes, my wife absolutely thought I was nuts. Unfortunately where I live on the Great Lakes Seacrafts are nonexistent. Many of the local used boats appeared to be neglected mostly due to poor winterizing.

Asking questions and searching this site was the best, first step I made. The first boat I looked at affirmed the quality of construction even though I walked away from that one. What I realized is I had to measure my commitment in terms of time, finance and skill. All boats will need work at some point. Even new ones. I can tell you 20' is a great trailerable size especially for accessing multiple bodies of water. Also, my wife has taken over recovering cushions and new canvas so she is past the "your crazy" stage. In fact we're waiting for her to close up shop so we can make our maiden voyage.

[Bushwacker]

Originally Posted by crsavage1

. . . I have read most, if not all, of the sticky posts for things like brackets etc. My original thought was to, when ready, add an armstrong bracket for a little more room in the back. I have built a new console I modeled out of foam and glassed it (I do things backwards, I wanted to understand how the process works) and figured it would give us a little more working space and perhaps some better seating. The bracket discussion gave some fair guidance about putting a bracket on a 20'. I assume some folks are running updated power on the 20's with and without brackets? Are the newer 4 strokes too heavy for a 20' or did I misunderstand?....

I'll try to address a couple of items . . . Terry did give you very good advice. He's been messin' around with boats for a long time and has a great perspective on your dilemma!

First of all, just because a SeaCraft is mostly original, that doesn't necessarily mean it has lot of problems. My own 44 year old boat is almost all original, except for the filled-in (but still original) transom! New SeaCrafts back in the 60's & 70's were premium well-built boats, so were not normally bought by first timers due to price. Most original owners were experienced boaters that knew what they were doing and generally took good care of them. The age of the boat is much less important than how well it was cared for by subsequent owners! I'm the second owner of my boat but I had previously owned 2 other boats for 8 years before I bought it, so I knew enough to not go drilling holes in cored decks and transom without proper sealing, etc.

As to how much of a "project" you should take on, only you can answer that since we don't know your skill level or experience, shop facilities, how much time you have available, etc. It's hard to put a price on the satisfaction you'll get from a good restoration you did yourself, but anyone that has done a restoration will be quick tell that you'll never come close to getting your investment back when you sell it! You have to balance that vs. the depreciation of a new boat and the satisfaction that DIY work provides and the knowledge that a well balanced and maintained 70's vintage SeaCraft will ride and perform better and probably outlast most similar new boats on the market!

Although you seem to be focused on a center console model, as most new boaters are, maybe for ease of handling anchor & dock lines, you say you're looking for a family boat, so don't overlook a model like the Seafari or Sceptre. Not only do they offer much more versatility with more deck space, dry storage, opening windshields, an enclosed head, and more protection from the sun and weather, because they're in less demand, they can often be bought for less than a CC model in equivalent condition!

Regarding power, any of the 20' models are relatively light, and because Moesly's slender variable deadrise hull is so much more efficient than fat modern deep-V hulls, they don't NEED a lot of power. When new they were typically sold with 85-135 hp motors, which was more than adequate for normal use. They were designed for motors of 300 lbs or less! I ran mine for 34 years with a 115 hp/300 lb motor, and I can tell you from years of experience with that combo that if you hang much more weight on the transom, you will NOT get the renowned ride and performance these boats were known for back in the day! 400 lbs is about the upper limit on motor weight. With more than that on the transom, you have to start moving weight around to keep the CG right, and that eliminates 4-strokes over about 115 hp. The 140 Zuke at about 420 lbs is the absolute heaviest I'd recommend. And if you add a bracket, not only will you have to move the console and trailer axle forward, you'll absolutely need to add other bandaids like AV plate fins, 4B props, and trim tabs! And regarding brackets, I'd consider the fiberglass Hermco bracket, which has much more flotation at rest, eliminating corrosion issues and maybe the need to raise deck, etc.

[wattaway2]

Think carefully about the seafarii for a northern climate.I have a 23cc and for S Fl I love it as with the heat down here we need as much air as we can get most summers . And after fishing a guys 25 Aqua sport one trip in the keys swore I would never fish it again as I baked that weekend very time we ran into the wind. NOw fishing with my brother in the cold waters around Plum Isld Ma. I have learned the value of having something to get behind and get out of the wind. A20' boat is probably the most USED size of trailered boat do to the ease of trailer ing and still offering room on board . One last note I spoke with bill Potter a few years back at the Palm beach boat show and was thinking about putting a bracket on my 20sf to get more room (he was selling brackets) his advice was if I needed more room to move up to a 23

[crsavage1]

Thank you so much for all the advice and insight. I sincerely appreciate it. I have never done boat restoration before but have done several cars over the years. My first being a 1953 Chevy 5 window pick-up truck I bought for 600.00 when I was 14. My Dad helped me restore it and I have done two 57's and a TR3. Other than body work, never really had the chance to work with fiberglass so I am a little wary there. Read a ton and seems like it is straight-forward but those are probably in the category of "famous last words".

Good insight on the particulars of choosing a boat. I am certainly not looking for any race boats so my questions about modern power was around the weight. Seems as though there is more to think about there and it is too early to make any decisions or planning until I am there.

These boats are hard to find locally, I am in Ohio. There are a couple of the 20's I have looked at on the For Sale board that I have inquired about but both are 800 miles away and shipping is insane. I am not afraid to drive for the right boat, that is just proving to be harder to figure out than I thought. I think it's best to stick to 20' for now as there are just 3 of us and due to it's size and trailer and storage abilities we are apt to keep it close and use it more.

I have also enjoyed bringing things back to life. I never really looked at it as getting my money back out as the projects always kept me busy and the money spread out didn't seem to hurt as bad. I was always more interested in selling to people that really enjoyed the history of the cars and the classic nature of their designs. Not if they just had the money for them. I just really enjoyed the work and the appreciation of something that others had tossed aside. Not really in it to make money. Good resell is always a smart move, but I would like to get the boat how we want which will probably result in longer ownership.

Anyhow, thank you sincerely for the insight. Please, continue to do so as I can use all the advice I can get from those that know what they are doing.

[McGillicuddy]

Welcome aboard Crsavage1.

The newer 4 strokes are fine. In my mind the 2.1 L Merc 115 is the best option. Its the least expensive, the simplest and the lightest. At around 360 lbs it's the lightest 115 on the market. These boats are really nimble when not weighted down. I think just about all 115s are 400lbs, +or - 20 lbs. The 90's like the Etec (2-s) or the Suzuki 4-s are very light at 330 and 345 respectively and excellent choices.

1. You're not crazy. Yet. Your quest for an old Seacreaft is reasonable - even noble. Pretty lines, solid pedigree, and fantastic ride. Based on your automotive rebuilds and the console you built, clearly have all the requisite skills, and aptitude to learn what you need to.

2. You're right the prices are all over the board. you may find an abandoned gem for $500 or someone may be trying to recoup their $8,500 of time and materials on hull with no motor or trailer. Think about what your willing to spend. $2000 for a decent hull is fairly common. A bargain, really... add a used trailer and older running motor and your easily in $4-5K to start.

3. No, you're not nuts. Yet... You've rebuilt old cars for the appreciation of what they are and you've already dipped your mitts in to the toxic resins to craft your own console design. You can do it.

4. Next size up, the 23' - is a much bigger boat. unleas you have a farm, the boat on trailer is unlikely to fit comfortably in your garage.

Stick with the 20' but even though youve already constructed your console, look at the possibility of the Bowrider 19, the Sceptre 20 and Seafari 20, especially since you live up north and going family rec style. The Seafari cuddy is great for sudden bad weather, colder days, sun and wind aversion, drying off and changing, camping, and a place to hide when you're in the doghouse. The Bowrider though few and far between is a great design and both fishing and family friendly. probably pretty nice for duck hunting, too! the Sceptre's a great little family runabout and probably the best of the lot for water toys. I would probably avoid the bracket.

One more thing to think about: Try to plan your boat and buy parts, etc., a step at a time. Avoid the temptation to stock up on deals and things you might need on ebay or craigslist, until you really need them. It's really easy to fill a shed with future plans

When you find yourself doing that, you will be nuts and beyond help

Cheers, and good luck with the search.

P.S., I found my 21 just north of Toledo and have recently seen Seacrafts in Indy, & Covington KY. Also Milwaukee 20 , & Traverse City MI 20 and 23 in the last week. Lots of big water around you, that's good.

[gofastsandman]

I will respectfully disagree with Gillie on the hoarding issue.

Find the deals when you see them. Always carry cash with you, as you never know.
I scored a really nice wheel for 60 clams. Twin 150 johnsons for 2k.
Hynautyic steering traded for riggers. Sweet bimini for 100 clams.

[McGillicuddy]

Originally Posted by gofastsandman

I will respectfully disagree with Gillie on the hoarding issue.

Find the deals when you see them. Always carry cash with you, as you never know.
I scored a really nice wheel for 60 clams. Twin 150 johnsons for 2k.
Hynautyic steering traded for riggers. Sweet bimini for 100 clams.

Sandman, did you put the 150s the 27?

[gofastsandman]

Originally Posted by McGillicuddy

Sandman, did you put the 150s the 27?

They will be going on the 25.
She is 25`6"

There must be a homeless Hermco out there somewhere...

Not a Don, but just a bracket.

I think collecting all the little old things along the way adds to the fun.
The old fairing job, not so much...